British EU referendum

UK nationals who have lived abroad for more than 15 years will not be able to vote in the referendum.  Based on the reasonable assumption that those who live in the EU, at least, are more likely to support membership, this has to be seen as a Cameron sop to his Eurosceptic right wing.

Actually it's the same as the voting rules for General Elections. It was reduced from 20 years to 15 by Gordon Brown's government. Although I don't see why there is a limit at all as that basically means we're disenfranchised and have no right to vote at all.

That's true but Cameron had promised to get rid of the restriction but has now ditched the idea of doing so...

Oh dear Cameron has broken his (half) promise... Come on Neil is that not what all politicians do these days (read forever)? Cameron and his cronies have stitched up the great British (English) public and mirror a certain Anthony Blair. They will also stitch up their right wing NF members and get whatever referendum suits their portfolio at the time of the voting ...

The polls remain fixed at 50:50 here - although the bookies are convinced that we will remain in the EU at 11/4 on as opposed to 11/5 against.  I hope they are right.  Anyway,  without wishing to appear patronising, those Brits living abroad and who are not registered to vote can do so online https://www.gov.uk/register-to-vote.

Registration has to be by June 7 for a proxy vote. If done by May 16 you will get a postal vote.  If you really don't like living in Italy and want to be put on the first plane back to the sunny old UK, then vote Brexit.

There seem to be a significant number of non-EU residents, from the USA & Russia for instance, living quite happily in Italy.

Please explain to me (in simple terms as I'm not very bright) why I should vote for a continuation of UK policy being decided by unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and for every economic migrant (not refugee or asylum seeker) wanting to get to the UK because of our generous welfare system.

I'm totally supportive of you continuing to live in Italy but I feel you need to be equally supportive of us who have to live in 'the sunny old UK'.

I don’t live in Italy – I’m a UK resident but I am a keen advocate of continued EU membership.  Let me deal with the issue of welfare benefits first.  I’m sure there are some EU migrants who are attracted by the relatively high benefits on offer compared to their own countries but these are not economically significant.  ‘EU migrant welfare benefit spongers’ makes for an easy soundbite but it is not supported by what evidence we do have. 

In 2013 the University College London Dept. of Economic published a paper in which it stated that between 2001-2011 EU migrants contributed £22 billion more than they took out of the system.  Essentially, they are young and here to work.  In addition, these migrants make up 9% of our NHS doctors and 6% of our nurses.  So, far from being a drain on the NHS, they are helping to sustain it.
The big plus point for me is the economic benefit membership brings to the UK.  Now that the Leavers have made clear that they are not interested in a deal which would give the UK access to the EU’s single market, we need to know on what basis we will trade with the EU – the destination currently of 44% of our exports.  The default position, in the absence of a deal which may well be difficult and protracted to secure, is to trade under World Trade Organisation rules.  These would lead to tariffs on some goods -  the average EU tariff is 5.3% but they can be as high as 20% on animal products.  Not good news for UK farmers.

WTO rules would be a disaster for UK financial services.  These are big earner for us (10% of the UK economy and 11% of tax revenue).  WTO rules would not allow our financial institutions access to the EU and London would cease to be the de facto HQ of European finance.  And no, I don’t work in the finance industry and never have.  I’m a retired teacher.  I hope this addresses some of your concerns.

PS Update:
Treasury statistics published today [12.5.16] showed the economic benefit of EU migration. They revealed that, in the 2013/14 tax year, recently arrived EU nationals paid £3.11 billion in income tax and National Insurance contributions, while drawing just £560 million in tax credits and child benefits.

I forgot to discuss the issue of 'unelected bureaucrats in Brussels' deciding UK laws.  The European parliament is, of course, directly elected.  It scrutinises and can reject proposals for laws by the European Commission whose 28 members are appointed by the Council of Ministers which represents the individual EU governments.  Voting in these institutions is by Qualified Majority Voting - the bigger the state, the more votes it wields.  The EU has 33,000 civil servants which manages 500m people - that's 20,000 fewer than Birmingham with its 1.1m population.  The UK found itself on the 'winning' side in 87% of the votes in the European Council between 2009-15 (Source London School Economics).

In my capacity as an EU national whose right to vote will remain until I die...or decide not to vote, I feel outraged bathe attitude of those countries who deny the right to vote to a portion of their citizens who get disenfranchised in the process. It basically means that not all citizens are equal, some are more equal than others. Simply revolt! And ask the government to appoint at least two members of Parliament to look after the interests of those overseas voter.
I totally agree with Neil, but I would be very worried if what Flip mentions finally take place......

GP seems to be posting in stereo tonight! 

However I appear to be in a minority of one here.  But I'm very appreciative of the informative contributions from GP, Neil D and Flip.

Interestingly enough only today it's emerged that over the last 5 years 1.2million more EU migrants have been given National Insurance numbers in the UK than have shown up in the official immigration statistics.  1,200,000 more! 

And then our old friend Abu Qatada.  Could we deport him?  No! The European Court of Human Rights blocked it (bless them!).  So it took 10 years and £1.7million before he was eventually returned to Jordan.

I'm hearing you but I'm not convinced yet.

Anybody look at the Sunday Times rich list? 17 of the top 25 Richest people in the UK are immigrants.   'They come over here .....  creating huge business empires and thousands of jobs, pay vast amounts of tax and invest in the Uk economy ..... '   Immigration is and has always been to Britains benefit, NI numbers dont mean anything...  I probably process 50 Codice Fiscale a year for my clients, of whom 10 buy.   Does that mean the Italian state calculates 50 immigrants or 10 house buyers?   - the issuing of a number means nothing.

ghiro wrote:GP seems to be posting in stereo tonight! :DHowever I appear to be in a minority of one here.  But I'm very appreciative of the informative contributions from GP, Neil D and Flip.Interestingly enough only today it's emerged that over the last 5 years 1.2million more EU migrants have been given National Insurance numbers in the UK than have shown up in the official immigration statistics.  1,200,000 more! 

And then our old friend Abu Qatada.  Could we deport him?  No! The European Court of Human Rights blocked it (bless them!).  So it took 10 years and £1.7million before he was eventually returned to Jordan.

I'm hearing you but I'm not convinced yet.

The Office of National Statistics says the Nat Ins numbers are not a good measure of migration levels.  Definition as a migrant requires a minimum stay of 12 months (UN definition).  In the year to June 2014, the ONS says long-term migration by EU citizens was 223,000 while short-term migration was another 251,000 – giving a total of 474,000. In the same period, 421,000 National Insurance numbers were given to EU citizens.  Short-term 'migrants' leave within 12 months but they are still issued NI numbers.

I think the ONS view is a better gauge of the truth of the matter - unless of course, like the OECD, the Bank of England, the IMF, the Treasury, the London School of Economics, the National Institute for Economic and Social Research etc, the ONS is paid hireling of the Remain camp.

The ECHR is not part of the EU and it both predates and is separate from the EU.  The UK is a member of the ECHR as a result of it being a signatory to the Human Rights Act (1998).  You need to direct your frustration there - not at the EU.  Don't confuse the ECHR with the European Court of Justice which is part of the EU.  Its purpose is to ensure that members stick to the rules of EU membership.

ghiro wrote:GP seems to be posting in stereo tonight! :DHowever I appear to be in a minority of one here.  But I'm very appreciative of the informative contributions from GP, Neil D and Flip.Interestingly enough only today it's emerged that over the last 5 years 1.2million more EU migrants have been given National Insurance numbers in the UK than have shown up in the official immigration statistics.  1,200,000 more! 

And then our old friend Abu Qatada.  Could we deport him?  No! The European Court of Human Rights blocked it (bless them!).  So it took 10 years and £1.7million before he was eventually returned to Jordan.

I'm hearing you but I'm not convinced yet.

No personal criticism Ghiro, but many people are unsure or incorrect over the actual mechanisms within the EU (who is responsible for legislation/rulings/statutes) which is hardly surprising given the magnitude  of legislating for such a diverse body of EU citizens.  This is what is behind most of this Sabre Rattling with the in or out camps in the ‘Brexit’ debate, many quote ‘’facts’’ that are often complete rubbish and biased toward their point of view, the Migration aspect being one of the most misused examples. To say that migrants (economic or otherwise) are bringing the UK to its knees is complete rubbish and as others have said Migrants provide the UK with a valuable asset in the service industry, taking many low paid and demeaning jobs that ‘British Citizens’ would be loathed to do. Regarding Deportation and teh like you will find that it is normally the Lawyers and Legal System that is at fault not the ECHR.

Well, you have said it all, Neil and Flip. Ghiro, this is a personal decision, which I respect, but there is a lot of misinformation and half truths. Scaremongering has always been common practice. The statistics given by Neil are totally correct. Britain has more to loose than to gain... But it is your decision....

Interesting initiative http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/ryanair-brexit-special-sale-offers-expats-cheap-flights-to-fly-home-and-vote-remain-a7037791.html

Ballot papers arrived yesterday !

Another good initiative that is going viral http://pleasedontgouk.com
So if you get a few unexpected hugs...

I spent the afternoon knocking on doors, encouraging people to get out and vote Remain.  After some adverse polls ten days or so ago, momentum has shifted back in favour of Remain as far as polls go.  This is in part is attributed to a tendency of voters to stay with the status quo.  Perhaps also a rejection of the UKIP-inspired xenophobia, the absence of a coherent post-Brexit vision from Leave for Britain, other than 'take back control' and 'vote for independence day' sloganising.  Anyway, I am optimistic that GB will resume its rightful role among the fraternity of European nations and reject the Little England fantasies of Leave.

Well - we're on our way out.

Goodness knows what will happen now - all one can hope for is that 'they' manage to make "the best of a bad job" for us Brits.

No use worrying about why it happened - we just have to get on with things.

I see Cameron is going - don't see how he could stay

Corbyn is getting savaged by some of his MPs - so he could be next

I feel the need for prayer

Milan stock exchange suspended after 25% fall in bank stock.... hold on to your seats - it's going to be a bumpy night.....