Pellets, don't buy too many just now

This post on Abruzzolutely might be worth a look if you use pellets.

We use pellets but tend to by pallet at a time, so we bought some in late November so should be OK for a while yet, but thanks for the valuable info Steve.

Lax has posted this on Abruzzolutely forum

OriginalRelaxed wrote:I'm reading stuff that the government has reversed this increase in IVA on pellets, and the rate will remain (revert) to 10%.

A politician got up on his hind legs and proposed that they fix this (admitted) error by means of an 'ordine del giorno' (I assume this is a fast track route to editing the law which included this pellet price increase).

I'm not finding anything in the press yet which I consider definitive on this, but it is looking very likely that the IVA change on pellets will be gone quite shortly.

... and we wonder why some of us at times think the country is in a mess... Still, you have to love it also.... Thanks Lax!

Thought all Italian politicians were always on their hind legs like Meerkats.......... follow the leader......... lol

yeah it will probably revert to 10% when the weather gets warmer after they have made their extra 12% from everyone..... B*stards.

May be of interest (until the next one !)

http://www.pwc.com/it/it/services/tls/assets/docs/tls-newsalert-n025.pdf

V

Vicino wrote:May be of interest (until the next one !)http://www.pwc.com/it/it/services/tls/assets/docs/tls-newsalert-n025.pdfV

Eye watering proposed increases in VAT (IVA), totally wrong way to go, which I can only surmise is to try to circumvent some of the tax avoidance 

I had a interesting discussion with one of our engineers today regarding pellet boilers. His words:

"Let me tell you that I do not like pellet furnaces because of their air pollution."

Interesting, as we are trying to save the planet.

Geotherm wrote:I had a interesting discussion with one of our engineers today regarding pellet boilers. His words:"Let me tell you that I do not like pellet furnaces because of their air pollution."Interesting, as we are trying to save the planet.

Pellet stove?
Moderately economical
Regular cleaning out needed
Fuel needs to be fetched and stored and fed

Heat pump (ASHP)?
Similar price for low power units
Cheaper to run
D1 tariff on all electricity
Clean
Reliable
Just switch it on

Pellets and gas boilers are history  I have discussed heat pumps in Southern Europe on http://originaltwist.com/2014/03/19/heat-pumps-in-southern-europe-air-or-ground/

/// where I have to admit that the solar shed concept is not a great help.

So what is the verdict on Northern Europe? I've noticed a few places in the UK recently with what looks like ASHP units on the walls (pretty sure with the building type and location, they were not just aircon). I would have thought neither would be really suitable for the UK without some form of other heating?

Steve.
Many in the Uk are going for these types of systems due to the RHI incentive.  Unfortunately, it  is not such a good payback for ASHP as it is for biomass, gshp or solar thermal heating.
The rates are here: hhttp://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/domestic/scotland/domestic/improving-my-home/renewable-heat-incentiveere

Most ASHP outputs fall as the air temperature falls so when you need the extra input the system is producing less which is why they were not so good in the UK. However, there are some ASHP (Panasonic/Mitsubishi to name 2 of the most efficient) that have models capable of producing constant heat production with an air temperature down to -15C (COP suffers a bit when you get below 5C but can still achieve between 2 & 3 at very low temperatures for underfloor heating).

If fitting in the UK would definitely go for the constant output type. Costs more but beats having a system that heat output falls when it needs to increase.

Don't know the average/minimum temperatures for northern Italy but the right ASHP should cope.

You should have a look at the new IVT AirX, Panner. It came out the best in the last Danish heat pump test of many models.
Document is in Swedish, but Google translate does a pretty good job.

http://www.ivt.se/produkter/luftvattenvarme/ivt-airx/oversikt/

Hi Geotherm

Looks good. Efficiency (in COP terms) is about the same as the one I have installed (Panasonic). Could not tell if it is a constant output type at low temperatures (but would expect it to be if it is aimed at the Swedish market)

Certainly one worth looking at

Geotherm wrote:Steve.Many in the Uk are going for these types of systems due to the RHI incentive.  Unfortunately, it  is not such a good payback for ASHP as it is for biomass, gshp or solar thermal heating.The rates are here: http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/scotland/domestic/improving-my-home/renewable-heat-incentive

Great information Geo. I was looking at the above link and it leads to this Offgem link, which seems to indicate ASHP are now included (unless I'm reading it wrong). But they do also seem to dictate the type/model to be installed. My interest in this subject is always of a general nature being aware that I will some day no doubt have to replace our heating in Italy and/or the UK. However at this point one of the children is looking to move house in the UK and the heating system will be one of their first jobs with renewable being their preference.

stevegwmonkseaton wrote:So what is the verdict on Northern Europe? I've noticed a few places in the UK recently with what looks like ASHP units on the walls (pretty sure with the building type and location, they were not just aircon). I would have thought neither would be really suitable for the UK without some form of other heating?

To answer your question I've compared monthly average temperature highs and lows  Perugia vs. Horsham.
Results for the 6 cold months only:
Nights are always colder in England by 1 or 2 degrees except Jan and Feb when Italy is 1 degree colder.
The average monthly lows for both zones are just above freezing - i.e. no trick technology required.
As days are always warmer in Italy, 1 - 3 degrees, the swing between night and day is a little more and so 
air source heat pumps make more sense particularly if biased towards daytime running with big tanks.
for the 3 coldest months England is only a degree or two colder during the day than Italy so in COP terms they are in the same ball park.
Badger - thanks for the link to your new machines - I'll swot up immediately
Panner - great to hear you are up and running - please let us know your findings as and when
If anyone is into the nitty gritty of COPs and stuff I have prepared a COP matrix for a modern ASHP in Excel. You can select an air temperature and the target temp such as floor, rads, fancoils and read off the COP. Just PM me if you'd like a copy.

Thank you very much Sagraiasolar, very useful information.