Legal minimum height requirements for a kitchen

So .. we live in a old Italian farmhouse, where the ground floor in the past was a cantena. The previous owners converted this into a kitchen, but our local comune have said it cannot legally be called a kitchen because the ceiling is too low. The plans on the land registry show the ceiling to be 2.3m.
In the UK the legal minimum celing height has been removed from the Bldg Regs, but there is indication that a practical minimum should be 2.1m (at least 50% of the floor area), but that a standard ceiling height is 2.4m.

Anyone have any information or links to Italian web-sites to understand what the Italian legal minimum is ?

My recollection is that it is 2.7m

This article says 2.75m
http://www.servizipubblicaamministrazione.it/servizi/saturnweb/Pubblicazioni.aspx?RicCro=1&CE=rmn648

I believe that the 2.75 [or 2.7] would apply when converting a cantina to a kitchen - at least that was what I was told by an architect when I looked at converting mine.

I have 2.72 or 2.75 in my head, but it depends on how old the property is. New build requirements are different from older ones.  
HOwever you have a kitchen that cannot be a kitchen on your catastal plan.  Presumably you have a kitchen on the plan and the house is an A something and you pay your IMU....

Here is the original legislation that still stands. So a kitchen needs to be 2.7m

If you're renovating an existing room that is lower then that is usually fine but if you are converting a utility space into a habitable space then you have to follow the same rules as for new build. There are also rules about the size of windows which have to have a surface area equal to 1/8th of the floor area of a room. Then there might be other local rules - like window openings can only be lowered not widened etc.

It's a very common problem. As Modi says you must have a kitchen on your cadastral plans already. You only really have three choices :
1. Live with it (as many other people do)
2. Dig down to lower the floor level in the kitchen/cantina so you have 2.7m then pay for the change of use
3. Use it as a taverna. It remains with a C classification so can be less than 2.7m  but can have many of the same attributes as a kitchen. You would definitely need to speak to your Comune to see what local rules apply.

Admin wrote:It's a very common problem. As Modi says you must have a kitchen on your cadastral plans already. You only really have three choices :
1. Live with it (as many other people do)
2. ..................

I'd suggest you live with it - call it a cantina and use it as a kitchen.

Problem may well be when you want to sell [but it didn't arise when you bought it - so why worry?].

The problem is now Alan that the law has changed and when you buy a house you need to sign to say that the house matches cadastral plans so from that moment on any fines/discrepencies etc become your financial and legal responsibility. Personally I would only buy a place now where that was true.

I know quite a few people here, in readiness for the alledged recalculation of the cadastral values, who are getting all the paperwork in order for properties that have been in their families for generations. It's quite a task (not to mention expensive) but they don't want this problem should the relative pass away and they have to go through the inheritence procedure. It's cheaper to fix while they can still get them to sign stuff!

What admin says is true, but what is a kitchen at the catasto does not have to be a kitchen.  To be a habitation you must have a kitchen and bathroom, thats why they are marked on the planimetria.   Whether your kitchen is where the plan says it is doesnt matter frankly.  What is important is that the structure - windows, doors and supporting walls and above all the sagoma of the building are what the plan says.  Bathrooms to a certain extent.   Nobody can stop you putting a bed in your kitchen and sleeping there.

The recalculation of valori catastali has been shelved.

I'm glad that's been shelved although for us it would probably be in our favour in the end.

Modi - would expect to pay the same price for a house with a kitchen still listed as a cantina (taking this example)? Just curious.

I dont think it would affect the price negatively.  It depends how nice the kitchen/cantina is!

This particular problem arose because of structural damage to our house following the earthquake.  Our engineer submitted a plan for repairs to the comune, which of course included the currrent floor plans.  The comune have said that whilst the plans match those on land registry, they don't match those of the comune. We cannot classify the kitchen as a kitchen, as the ceiling is too low, and the first floor - which has 'kitchen' indicated on the comune plans - there is no kitchen.  So the house would be completely 'illegal' to sell in the future as it doesn't have a legal kitchen.
Trying to work out the best way of fixing this for now and for the future.

So the plan at the comune doesn't match the plan at the catasto. In theory the catasto is the last one to get updated when you renovate/build etc. So, either someone has made a mistake or done something dishonest in the past but it is now catching up with you. The comune doesn't really care what the catasto says (except to calculate your IMU). They go by their records.

Have you seen the plan at the comune? Can you fudge the house to match it? i.e. install a 'kitchen' in the room it's supposed to be in and call your kitchen a taverna?

That would be the cheapest/ easiest solution if your geometra/architect is OK with it. Otherwise what does he suggest?

It looks like when the previous owners did the work, they did it in 'difformita' of the project submitted, if they submitted a project.   If the house is right at the catasto, its easiest - as admin says - seeing what you have to do at the comune level to sort it.  However it will depend if the previous work was done with a simple nulla osta (DIA) or whether it was a full blown concessione edilizia.  I take it the only thing in difformita is the kitchen?

Its not the only problem. On ground floor 2 door openings bricked up and new window created . On top floor internal walls built and classified as bedrooms without permission or change of use from attic to bedrooms. This can be fixed with new plans and fines paid. However previous owner signed sales contract to say there were no changes made with building and planning permissions. Might need an international lawyer as me and seller in UK but property subject to Italian law.

Here is a very good article explaining the problems and different types of conformity required when you buy or sell a property. Look specifically at this part:

Conseguenze per abuso e irregolarità edilizie

La formula prensete nei rogiti è "l'immobile viene acquistato nello stato di fatto e di diritto in cui si trova", per questo l'acquirente dopo il rogito erediterà anche eventuali abusi o irregolarità edilizie. 

If this phrase was in your deed of sale then upon signing you took responsibility for any irregularities in building permissions/registrations. I don't think a lawyer can do much except remove you of a lot of cash. In my opinion you would be better spending the money on putting it right.

1.  Submit plans to the Comune for approval which show a kitchen on the first floor [only show the minimum requirements] and call the room on the ground floor a Cantina.  Also show on plans any other 'necessary amendments to cover 'old' amendments to the building.


2.  Do the works as per the plans submitted - using kitchen equipment [where possible] from your 'Cantina Kitchen' to kit out the 1st floor kitchen

3.  Get the works signed off by all concerned when works completed.

4.  Move the kitchen equipment back into the Cantina

5 If/When you want to sell - move kitchen equipment back to the 1st floor

Then its more complicated.  You cannot open windows where yo like.  When you say top floor do you mean mansard?  Putting bedrooms, which also have minimum legal height and light in an attic is not allowed, at least not without redoing your rateable value and hiking up your IMU.  You will have a fair few sanctions and fines to pay, and may have to close up your new window.   INternal walls which dont or do appear on the plans is another problem.    Your seller said there were no changes made with permissions, but obviously said nothing about changes being made without permissions ...  you will need to swallow ahrd and sort it out.  The kitchen is the least of your problems.

My engineer thinks that the two doors bricked up and the new window on the rear of the property will get retrosptective permission (with fines) and that the walls built in the 'soffitto' (the second floor) will also get approved (subject to fines).  I will then have to request a change of use for the third floor - and pay more money.
He has checked the ground floor and we cannot lower the floor - so existing kitchen can't be called a kitchen and one needs to be installed on first floor - although I can still leave the one on the ground floor.

All of you have been great with your comments - thankyou.

If anyone has information about the following :
1) what are the absolute minimumum requirements for a kitchen to be called a kitchen.
2) any experiences dealing with international lawyers or recommendations.

If any of you are interested I will update this thread as stuff develops.

A kitchen has to be a minimum of 5sqm (17 if it is a kitchen/living room) and has to have the following:

• floor in waterproof material, smooth, washable and durable;
  
• ceiling in breathable material;
  
• extractor, above the hob, able to ensure the captureand removel of vapours smells and fumes (only with electric hobs is it allowed to install a filtering hood which is not attached to a tube)
  
• walls where there is the sink and hob must be covered in a waterproof material, smooth, washable and durable which can also be made from a type of furniture
  

your region/comune may have additional requirements

If you really want to go the legal route (remember that the average time for a case to come to court is 8-10 years in Italy!) I would strongly suggest speaking to Charlotte Oliver (one of our members) who is qualified here in Italy and also in the UK as a lawyer.

Good luck.

In older houses, a kitchen must have a minimum of a cold tap and a drain for said tap.  A window which opens.    The possibility to cook was an optional.

Hi all

We have a similar problem which we are currently tangling with as we would like to sell....any advice very gratefully received right now!

We renovated our broken down stone farmhouse back in 2007 with an architetto as our director of works. We received our certificate of habitation and started to enjoy the house. 

It has now come to light that the kitchen breakfast area head height is less than 2.7 metres and we are being told it cannot be habitable space. The renovation plans submitted and approved indicate the kitchen and breakfast rooms would have a head height of 2.7 metres (which they did not when we bought the ruin as they were old cantinas). 

There are other deviations from the plans approved originally by our comune (including the overall height of the building) which have increased the volume of our build. As a result, our current geometra is recommending we make two applications - the first to say that our kitchen is not a kitchen but a store (thereby reducing the habitable volume of the accommodation on paper to what it should have been), and the second to request an increase in the volume to what we actually have so that this issue is resolved without having to lower the roof of the house. He seems fairly confident this will be approved. 

What I am struggling to understand is whether this resolves the issue in the kitchen breakfast area. My geometra doesn't speak English and my Italian is ropey. I have a few questions which I've been having difficulties getting answers to so I wonder if I can call upon the collective wisdom here...

- Does the above plan sound feasible in terms of resolving the volume issue?
- Does it sound as though I will also be given permission to call my existing kitchen a kitchen and have it recorded as habitable space?
- Does anyone know whether the 2.7 metre is to the underside of the beams or to the terracotta tiles above the beams?
- If it will not resolve the issue with the kitchen, what are the implications for the sale of my property - does it devalue it to have an "unofficial" kitchen? 
- I believe there is something about having to commit that the build is as per the permissions when you sell a property now??
- Does anyone know any other way of resolving this!?

Many thanks!